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Originally posted by Celtic Warrior:
1 Corinthians 15:28-29

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?


What does this verse mean, specifically vs. 29?

The Catholic church did away with allowing living people to be baptised for the dead in the 4th century. But this verse remains in 1 Corinthians.

I believe only the Mormons still do this.

I'm wondering, was it done for anyone who had passed away, or only for ancestors who had never heard the Gospel...situations like that?

Are there any ancient writings on this that have survived, besides this one verse of Scripture?

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There is actually lots more to it than the catholic (convenient) view of purgatory.

Jesus told the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich man, and spoke with the thief on the cross that both indicate that those that are forgiven go to immediate rest to await the judgment while those that aren't , do not.
There are numerous other texts that helped shape the catholic doctrine of purgatory but were only partially used in order to develop a more palatable "purgatory".
From those documents, many of which have been banned in the catholic church now and some that haven't you can read descriptions of when a person dies , angels meet him (agrees with lazarus/rich man), additional descriptions indicate that satan also sends angels (which is what I think my friend was seeing as he died) that are permitted to see if satan has a part in the person that died. If so they are not allowed to go with the Angels sent by God but must go into darkness with satan's angels to await judgment knowing what their punishment will be. This does not seem to disagree with the teaching of Jesus on Lazarus and the rich man and the thief on the cross and at the very least is part of very early judaeo Christian belief that existed before being redesigned by the Romans.

There is a scene in Ghost (whoopi and swayze) that had to be modeled from these ancient beliefs as the thug that is attacking Demi and Whoopi is killed and these dark figures arrive to claim his spirit.
It appears that the teaching of Christ included the arrival of angels at death and they are also mentioned after the temptation in the wilderness.

One of the texts that is still canonized in the catholic bible is the book of 2 Esdras in the New English Bible. I have read it in several translations but the one called the "New English" with Apocrypha seems to be the one I remember that I could not put down. The rest of the books of the Apocrypha were pretty slow historical etc, but this one talks of Ezra's visit with an angel and the writing of many books and he is allowed to ask God questions including what happens when you die. If you are interested I'll see if I can find a link although I read it from a hard copy I have at home. I also have read considerable parts or the book of mormon, and Quran and I don't recommend it for those that don't know the bible from memory but for those that do, there are some interesting things that confirm Christ and His words in so many ways.

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I think this is the Esdras (Ezra) that I was talking about. Once you start reading it is hard to put down. An unusual work:

http://www.goodnewsinc.org/othbooks/esdras2.html

The book mentions a group of people "Carmanians" (Carmonians) that would destroy much near the end. These peoples are known to inhabit the N region of the Persian Gulf.

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I know this belongs in the religion section and after this I will move it or stop but this is a question that most people have and is in the Book I posted the link to:

What happens after life:
Then I said: 'If I have won your favour, my lord, make this plain to me: at death, when every one of us gives back his soul, shall we be kept at rest until the time when you begin to create your new world, or does our torment [76] begin at once?' 'I will tell you that also', he replied. 'But do not include yourself among those who have despised my law; do not count [77] yourself with those who are to be tormented. For you have a treasure of good works stored up with the Most High, though you will not be shown [78] it until the last days. But now to speak of death: when the Most High has given final sentence for a man to die, the spirit leaves the body to return to the One who gave it, and first of all to adore the glory of the Most High. [79] But as for those who have rejected the ways of the Most High and despised [80] his law, and who hate all that fear God, their spirits enter no settled abode, but roam thenceforward in torment, grief, and sorrow. And this for seven [81] [82] reasons. First, they have despised the law of the Most High. Secondly, they have lost their last chance of making a good repentance and so gaining [83] life. Thirdly, they can see the reward in store for those who have trusted the [84] covenants of the Most High. Fourthly, they begin to think of the torment [85] that awaits them at the end. Fifthly, they see that angels are guarding [86] the abode of the other souls in deep silence. Sixthly, they see that they are [87] soon to enter into torment. The seventh cause for grief, the strongest cause of all, is this: at the sight of the Most High in his glory, they break down in shame, waste away in remorse, and shrivel with fear remembering how they sinned against him in their lifetime, and how they are soon to be brought before him for judgement on the last day. [88] 'As for those who have kept to the way laid down by the Most High, this is what is appointed for them when their time comes to leave their mortal [89] bodies. During their stay on earth they served the Most High in spite of constant hardship and danger, and kept to the last letter the law given [90][91] them by the lawgiver. Their reward is this: first they shall exult to see the glory of God who will receive them as his own, and then they shall enter [92] into rest in seven appointed stages of joy. Their first joy is their victory in the long fight against their inborn impulses to evil, which have failed to [93] lead them astray from life into death. Their second joy is to see the souls of the wicked wandering ceaselessly, and the punishment in store for [94] them. Their third joy is the good report given of them by their Maker, that throughout their life they kept the law with which they were entrusted. [95] Their fourth joy is to understand the rest which they are now to share in the storehouses, guarded by angels in deep silence, and the glory waiting for [96] them in the next age. Their fifth joy is the contrast between the corruptible world they have escaped and the future life that is to be their possession, between the cramped laborious life from which they have been set free and the spacious life which will soon be theirs to enjoy for ever and ever. [97] Their sixth joy will be the revelation that they are to shine like stars, never [98] to fade or die, with faces radiant as the sun. Their seventh joy, the greatest joy of all, will be the confident and exultant assurance which will be theirs, free from all fear and shame, as they press forward to see face to face the One whom they served in their lifetime, and from whom they are now to receive their reward in glory. [99] 'The joys I have been declaring are the appointed destiny for the souls of the just; the torments I described before are the sufferings appointed for the rebellious.' [100] Then I asked: 'When souls are separated from their bodies, will they be] be given the opportunity to see what you have described to me?' 'They will be allowed seven days,' he replied; 'for seven days they will be permitted to see the things I have told you, and after that they will join the other souls in their abodes.

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But now to speak of death: when the Most High has given final sentence for a man to die, the spirit leaves the body to return to the One who gave it, and first of all to adore the glory of the Most High. [79] But as for those who have rejected the ways of the Most High and despised [80] his law, and who hate all that fear God, their spirits enter no settled abode, but roam thenceforward in torment, grief, and sorrow. And this for seven [81] [82] reasons.

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But now to speak of death: when the Most High has given final sentence for a man to die, the spirit leaves the body to return to the One who gave it, and first of all to adore the glory of the Most High.

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Originally posted by Celtic Warrior:
To SOT:

Thanks again for the replies, and for the link on the book of Esdras (Ezra). I need to research that book, and I will be looking at the link you posted.

The quote you shared from it is very interesting. It does sound like some human spirits are allowed to wander/roam the earth, ... but they would be what I had suspected they might be, if such 'ghosts' are human in origin...they would be the "unclean spirits" that are not able to find rest.

That is a sad situation.

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But now to speak of death: when the Most High has given final sentence for a man to die, the spirit leaves the body to return to the One who gave it, and first of all to adore the glory of the Most High. [79] But as for those who have rejected the ways of the Most High and despised [80] his law, and who hate all that fear God, their spirits enter no settled abode, but roam thenceforward in torment, grief, and sorrow. And this for seven [81] [82] reasons.

Of course, Ezra was written before Christ's atonement and sacrifice, during the full reign of the Law.

Would anything be changed from that time, the time that Ezra was written, and the time after Christ's atonement and resurrection?

Might that be a reason that there was a practice in the early church, or known to the early Christians, of being baptized for the dead, since Christ's coming had changed things from the way they were before?

I guess I need to try to research that aspect as well.

What most overlook including the letters of Paul are that when Jesus lived, the law was all that there was and that according to Jesus, the law would never change. Jesus also said that His words which are part of the fulfillment of the Law would NEVER pass away , which they have not. One cannot get to God without having to deal with the law , for believers in Christ, that is to go through Christ as the fulfillment of the law. Paul did know the proper perspective of the law and that is that he called it a "schoolmaster" to bring us to Christ. Most either distort or can't understand what he meant but Paul's message was that without Christ you are still under the law. If you are under the law you will be found wanting. The law describes sin. Without the law there would be no definition of sin. And so the message is the same today. Much of the teaching of Christ was to highlight that the Holy Law from God presented a dilemna for even the most righteous amongst us (in His time the Pharisees), the sermon the mount was more than just pointing out that there were more things that were sin than the religious leaders taught , He pointed out that they too were sinners and could not come to God through their own righteousness. In Revelation it describes that EVERYONE will be judged according to the book of the law. It also points out that on Judgment day there is another book called the book of life and regardless of how one was judged from the first book, if their name is in the book of life they will be saved. All others are cast in the pit. The account in Revelation describes no one that was saved by the book of works. Only those whose name is written in the book of life. Jesus said that no man comes unto the Father except by Me. Most churches have forgotten or may have never practiced that. Most teach you that you must abide by Paul's teaching to be saved which is incorrect. Paul founded the church as we know it today, unfortunately that is not the "church" that Jesus spoke about where the greatest were not leaders but servants. There have been some "members " of Jesus' church in history but just as He described in Matt. 7 they are few that find it. He called it a narrow gate. When I stopped looking at the wide gate, I saw something different. I could see that the Kingdom of God already is and the only way to be in it is to be subject to the "King". Modern people do not relate to "kingdoms" but in a "kingdom" the will of the King is above all. So it is in the Kingdom of God, when we find ourselves seeking His will over our own, we might find that we have a new King.

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But now to speak of death: when the Most High has given final sentence for a man to die, the spirit leaves the body to return to the One who gave it, and first of all to adore the glory of the Most High.

This first verse of the quote is interesting, because it would seem to explain the the universal, world-wide reports of what happens during "near-death experiences". Such as why reports of them from many different cultures, religions, ect...are all the same...folks entering into a bright white light, feeling the love and peace, etc..

Whether folks are able to stay in that presence, seems to depend on their relationship with the Lord, according to that verse.

Interesting.